Episode 5: Leadership Is Vulnerability with Accountability
Updated: 5 minutes ago
Leadership Is Vulnerability with Accountability
A Conversation with Mandell Jackson
What does real leadership look like?
For Mandell Jackson, it begins with vulnerability, but vulnerability without accountability isn’t enough.
In Episode 5 of Anything Could Happen, I sit down with Mandell Jackson, a Fortune 500 executive, former U.S. Naval Officer, President of NGageMe, executive and leadership coach, and expert in employee engagement.
Mandell challenges the idea that great leaders need to have all the answers. Instead, he makes the case for leaders who can acknowledge what they don’t know, admit mistakes, listen to their teams, and still take responsibility for the outcome.
“Vulnerability is not weakness. It is actually the exact opposite. Vulnerability is a declaration of strength because you're coming into it willing to say, ‘I don't know.’”
Throughout our conversation, we explore what happens when leaders stop treating people like interchangeable parts and begin paying attention to their individual strengths, personalities, circumstances, and ways of contributing.
We talk about bringing out the best in quieter employees, creating meaningful one-on-one conversations, recognizing when someone is simply in the wrong role, leading through organizational change, succession planning, receiving difficult feedback, taking calculated risks, and what happens when fear replaces good leadership.
Mandell also shares one of the most personal examples of vulnerability in the conversation.
During one of the most difficult periods of his life, he was going through a divorce while serving in a highly visible corporate leadership role. He finally told the four leaders reporting to him that he was struggling and needed them.
They stepped forward.
The team still hit its number.
As Mandell puts it:
“When I was at my worst, they were at their best.”
It’s a powerful example of something that runs through our entire conversation: humanity and accountability are not competing approaches to leadership. At their best, they strengthen one another.
This is a conversation about leadership with humanity at its center.
✨ IN THIS EPISODE
We explore:
Why vulnerability and accountability belong together
Why saying “I don’t know” can be an act of leadership
How leaders can create space for quieter and more introverted employees
Why one leadership style doesn’t work for everyone
How to hold people accountable without stripping away their humanity
Why someone struggling in a role may be in the wrong position rather than lacking ability
Using strengths to help people find work where they can thrive
Why succession planning should be part of a leader’s everyday thinking
The hidden organizational cost of losing key employees
Why leaders need to consider employees’ families and lives outside of work
How trust changes what employees are willing to contribute
Mandell’s experience leading through an extremely difficult divorce
What happens when organizational fear turns into threats and secrecy
Why leaders should normalize receiving feedback before a crisis occurs
The feedback Mandell received from one of his own top performers
Servant leadership and getting over the need to be the loudest person in the room
How to take calculated risks
A leadership risk that helped Mandell’s team reach its annual revenue goal months early
How one former colleague eventually became a CFO and helped give Mandell his first coaching engagement
POLISHED TRANSCRIPT
This transcript has been lightly edited for clarity, grammar, and readability while preserving the substance and conversational character of the interview.
The Principles of Leadership
Diana: Welcome to the Anything Could Happen podcast. With me today is Mandell Jackson. Mandell has real-world Fortune 500 experience. He’s a Fortune 500 executive, former U.S. Naval Officer, President of NGageMe, executive coach, leadership coach, and an expert on employee engagement.
Mandell, it’s so nice to have you with us.
Mandell: Thank you very much, Diana. It is great to be here. I’ve been looking forward to this discussion.
Diana: Fantastic. Could you begin by sharing your principles of leadership?
Mandell: For me, the principles of leadership aren’t as stagnant as some people would say. I don’t have this full list of things you have to do.
For me, the core principles of leadership are vulnerability, accountability, presence, commitment, honesty, and integrity. Those things can flow. They have ebbs and flows depending on what type of environment you’re in and what type of role you’re in.
But if you have some combination of those things, on the back end of it, it is really accountability.
Diana: What I love about that is that you lead with vulnerability. What I find in many workplaces and organizations is that leadership is often mistaken for being the expert. But the expert might not have many of the qualities you’re describing. They can be dictatorial and not know how to bring people together.
Could you unpack vulnerability and some of those other qualities?
Vulnerability + Accountability
Mandell: Absolutely. I believe vulnerability and accountability are kissing cousins. You have to have both.
There needs to be a balance. You can’t have too much of one without the other, and you can’t have one without the other.
One of the things I do in my sessions and when I’m talking with new companies is begin with my company’s definition of vulnerability. Our definition actually includes the word accountability.
For us, vulnerability is a leader’s ability to acknowledge what they do not know, admit mistakes, and face uncertainty while maintaining accountability for the outcome.
The first thing I say is vulnerability is not weakness. It is actually the exact opposite.
Vulnerability is a declaration of strength because you’re coming into it willing to say, “I don’t know.”
Diana: So they’re responsible. They’re saying, “I don’t have all the answers, but I’ll take ownership.”
Mandell: Exactly. I don’t have all the answers, but what I can’t do is dismiss the accountability.
My belief is that within all the things I’m responsible for, the people who are here represent the promise. They represent a solution. They represent the answer.
If I can cultivate enough openness and humanity for the people I’ve hired to bring their best without fear, either the answer exists somewhere in this culture or, collectively, with all of us bringing our best, we’ll get the answer.
I’m accountable from the beginning of the problem through our brainstorming and working toward the solution. And ultimately, I’m accountable if we don’t get to the solution.
But I operate under the belief that the answer is here somewhere. And if it’s not within our team or structure, there’s enough intelligence around us to find it somewhere else.
Diana: That makes perfect sense. It reminds me of Seth Godin’s Tribes. He talks about real leadership being about getting people to take ownership of an idea. When they have ownership, they contribute and become invested.
What you’re describing is presenting yourself as someone open, willing, and curious about what can be done collectively. You’re drawing on everyone’s assets.
At the same time, you’re taking away the pressure to posture. If something goes wrong, you’re not going to point fingers. You’ll be responsible.
Mandell: Yes. And not only will I be responsible, I’m also going to share the credit.
One thing I try to convince leaders to do is dismiss your solution, even when your solution is great.
My solution may be great. Diana’s solution may also be great, and it may be very different from my own. But if her solution is great, imagine how much trust and engagement my team will offer when they know, “Yes, Mandell had a solution, but he’s going to use mine.”
Let’s see what happens.
Smart leadership shifts. It looks for opportunities to pause and do things a little differently.
I’m still accountable, but my desire and my goal are to figure out a way to get the best from everybody.
Making Room for Quieter People
Diana: That’s challenging. How do you draw out the quieter people?
Mandell: I bring out quieter people by continuing to demonstrate that it’s okay for them to be quiet while also creating opportunities for them to offer what’s inside of them.
They may never be the person who raises their hand and speaks in a big crowd.
But I have to continue figuring out ways for them to speak the way they want to speak.
It may not be in the crowd. It may be sending me an email. It may be sharing something with somebody else. It may be meeting with me one-on-one.
What I’ve found is that when we move too fast, we discount people who present differently or who are quiet. Or we speak in a way that makes them even quieter. Then they’re never going to chime in.
They need to hear us say, “Not chiming in is okay. You don’t have to chime in, but I still want to hear from you. What are you thinking?”
Diana: That’s the quiet power of introversion. When you complement the extrovert with the introvert’s qualities, you get so much more.
Mandell: Everybody’s engagement is different. As leaders, being okay with everybody’s engagement looking different is the start.
I don’t need Mandell to be like Diana. I need Mandell to be just like Mandell.
But there is still a measure of accountability.
You have greatness in you. You don’t have to share it the way everyone else shares it, but I need you to help me understand how you want to share your greatness.
Accountability Without Rigidity
Diana: Once you understand an employee’s greatness and how they express it, how do you hold them to that high standard and keep them accountable?
Mandell: I schedule one-on-ones with everybody.
What I try not to do is make those discussions a hard and fast, rigid template. My open conversation is governed by what I’ve learned about each person.
Some people will never have an open conversation unless I’m driving it and asking questions. Others prefer an open conversation without a script.
For some people I can simply ask, “If there were anything you really wanted me to know, what would it be?”
For somebody who doesn’t like to talk, I might say, “I don’t think you have to say it a certain way. If you weren’t talking to me, what would you say? If there’s something you’ve held to yourself for the last month and wished you could share with somebody, what would it be?”
I still need to make it okay for them to say nothing.
But I chip away at it.
Eventually, accountability comes into play. I may say, “Diana, you and I have had this discussion for three weeks. I know how brilliant you are, but for some reason you’re still not comfortable sharing that brilliance. Eventually, you’re going to have to. Take a few days and tell me what is required for you to share what you have.”
I try hard to be human and allow people to jump in the way they want to jump in.
But then comes that balance between vulnerability and accountability.
If someone never finds their footing or comfort enough to offer their best, we may eventually have to say, “This may not be the position for you.”
And guess what? That’s okay.
Then the conversation becomes: “What type of environment would allow you to offer your best?”
Maybe it’s somewhere else in the organization.
When a Great Employee Is in the Wrong Role
Mandell: I’ve seen this especially in sales. People sometimes get promoted to their level of incompetence or, as I think of it, their position of discomfort.
Maybe someone was phenomenal at selling pharmaceutical products. Then they’re promoted into health plan sales, which is very different. Now they’re selling a service rather than a product.
I inherited people who had won every kind of sales contest imaginable. Then they moved into selling a service and struggled.
They were miserable. They felt like they were failing.
What they appreciated was having someone who didn’t say, “You’re not a good salesperson.”
Instead, I said, “This seems to be different. You’ve been on stage numerous times in your career because you were selling the heck out of those products. Let’s look at the behavioral and competency differences between selling a product and selling a service.”
They had never looked at it that way.
We allowed them to return to selling products, and they were happy.
I also had someone who had been an analyst and was excellent at financial analytics. She convinced the organization to move her into sales because she really wanted to do it.
But eventually, we had to have the conversation: “Love you to death, but you’re never going to hit your number.”
We needed to find a way to keep her gainfully employed within the organization or help her find somewhere else that was a better fit.
She ultimately chose to leave because she didn’t want to return to finance.
Leadership With Humanity
Diana: What strikes me is the kindness with which you communicate and the clarity you provide. You’re honest, but you communicate it gently and transparently enough that people don’t immediately become defensive.
Mandell: Thank you.
Years ago, during year-end calibrations, someone in HR said, “You all don’t realize this, but the person everybody thinks is so lovely and everybody loves has terminated more people than anybody in here.”
She was talking about me.
Everybody was surprised.
But I’ve never made enemies out of people I’ve terminated.
Imagine what it feels like to be in a job you don’t like or a job where you feel like you can’t do it. The expectations aren’t going anywhere. They hit you in the face every day.
One of the charges of leadership is to offer that humanity every day.
Before somebody becomes so stressed from not hitting their number that they disengage or want to leave, let’s have the conversation.
Maybe we move them into another division. Maybe we help them find an organization that better matches their personality, skill set, and desires.
And I’m going to help them do that.
Working From Your Strengths
Diana: But we often hear that you can learn anything. Are there things that simply aren’t a good match for us?
Mandell: I grew up hearing, “You can be whatever you put your mind to. You can be whatever you dream of.”
I’ve since learned, in my experience, that isn’t true.
I’m a strong proponent of CliftonStrengths. I went to Gallup and received a global Gallup strengths coaching certification.
I believe people have certain talents, certain things we’re attracted to and get energy from doing. Those things become strengths when we repeatedly tap into them.
I’ve seen people operating in their strengths, and their engagement is maximized.
When we’re not able to operate in our strengths, our engagement drops.
Can you get better at something you don’t have a natural talent for? Yes. But that doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll ever execute it flawlessly.
Sometimes organizations fail people because we don’t understand why they aren’t getting something.
We say, “We’ve told them twenty times. We got them a mentor. We got them a coach.
They’re still not doing it.”
Well, there may be a reason, and it may not be because they aren’t trying.
Maybe it isn’t their strength.
And that’s okay.
We can assess what they do exceptionally well and what gives them high engagement, then look across the organization and ask, “What roles have those things in the job description?”
Maybe we discover a different department they didn’t even know existed.
Succession Planning Is Leadership
Diana: If you move someone, though, you potentially create a gap. How do you fill it?
Mandell: Another part of leadership accountability is succession planning.
I tell anyone who has a P&L: regardless of the movement, a promotion is a loss. A demotion is a loss. A termination is a loss. A death is a loss.
Anytime you lose a person for a good or bad reason, it’s a loss, and it will show on your P&L.
Succession planning needs to be in your DNA.
As soon as I see that somebody on my team has the potential to be promoted, I need to start working scenarios for replacing them.
Suppose I knew Diana was going to become a vice president from the moment I interviewed her. As soon as I hire her, I should already be thinking about developing her, promoting her, and eventually seeing her leave.
When do I identify her replacement? Is that person growing within my organization? Do I look outside?
Succession planning can’t sit on the back burner.
Employees Have Lives Outside of Work
Mandell: Another sensitive topic for me is when companies don’t understand how families come into play.
You need to be mindful of the dynamics for a young mother, a single parent, or somebody who has become the caregiver for elderly parents.
There are families these people go home to.
My approach to leadership is to cultivate a culture where nobody thinks, “If I get pregnant, my job is at risk,” or, “I’m going to be looked at differently.”
No.
You’re going to go have your babies.
Maybe someone’s mother falls down the stairs. Their father died two years ago and now they need to take care of their mother.
I’m accountable for making sure they can do that comfortably while also figuring out how to keep the organization running and keep them part of the team.
Life is lifeing.
People don’t come to work just because they want to sit there and work all day. They come to work and give their all because they have families and lives outside of work that they need to attend to.
“When I Was at My Worst, They Were at Their Best”
Diana: That would create so much trust. Employees can be transparent when they feel cared for and supported. They feel secure and respected.
Mandell: Absolutely.
People sometimes say, “Then they’re going to cheat the system.”
My experience has shown the opposite.
When you have that type of culture, your team goes all in. They tend to deliver more than expected day after day, week after week, year after year.
They know I’m still holding everybody accountable. But I’m able to be human and recognize that they’re human too.
And I also need to demonstrate that I’m human.
When I was going through my divorce, it was the worst experience of my life, and it happened at the worst possible time in my corporate career.
I was a division vice president in a highly visible role, and everyone thought we were going to fail because we were all new and learning.
Thank God I was able to be honest with the four leaders who reported to me.
I told them, “Guys, I’m just going to tell you: I can barely think right now. I really need you all.”
Before I could even get the words out, one of them pulled me aside and said, “MJ, we have you covered.”
Diana, for months, I could barely tell you what time it was. I was almost in a comatose leadership state.
They stepped up.
And not only did they step up, we hit our number.
When I was at my worst, they were at their best.
People Are Human
Mandell: I know some people caution leaders against treating their teams like family. I respect that opinion, but I disagree with the sentiment because I’ve seen the other side.
At the end of the day, regardless of what we’re selling, what we’re tasked with, or how mean our bosses are, nothing gets done without people.
And the last time I checked, people are human.
All humans need humanity.
When we tap into humanity, great things happen.
When we ignore it and treat people like widgets or robots, you may get the task done, but you’re not going to get the absolute best they have to offer.
Good leaders cultivate environments and cultures where you never have to wonder whether somebody is going to give their all.
What Happens When the Person You Depend on Leaves?
Diana: I saw the opposite happen when I worked at a university library.
One of my coworkers had been there for years and was going through an extremely difficult period. She didn’t feel heard or seen by leadership.
Eventually, she walked off the job without warning.
She wasn’t trying to be unkind. She was a lovely person. But she had become so dissatisfied that when she left, the system practically collapsed because we relied on her for such a critical function.
Then you urgently hire somebody new. They’re on a learning curve, and nobody really knows how to train them because the person who had been doing the job for almost a decade is gone.
It became chaos, and work satisfaction dropped because all of our jobs were interconnected and now under stress.
Mandell: That’s what happens when you lose the wrong person.
That goes right back to succession planning.
Sometimes I ask leaders, “What would we do if Joan left tomorrow?”
And when the answer is, “Joan’s not going anywhere. She loves this,” I say, “Okay. We need to talk.”
Joan leaving has nothing to do with whether she loves her job.
Something is going to change.
I may leave. You may leave. Joan may get sick.
You cannot operate under the belief that nothing is going to change.
You’re accountable for working through scenarios of change even when things don’t change.
When you have people who are critically important to your bottom line because of their experience and the customers who adore them, you had better know what life looks like if you lose them.
Anything else is taking them for granted.
That’s not being negative.
It’s being accountable.
When Fear Replaces Leadership
Diana: What happens when an organization experiences a huge loss and leadership, which may normally be very good, suddenly begins operating from fear?
I’ve seen management styles change under that kind of pressure. Transparency changes. Trust changes.
I was once in a situation where colleagues suddenly disappeared from management reports. I reached out to people and discovered there had been massive layoffs.
When I asked leadership whether something was wrong because communication felt different, I was essentially told, “Business as usual. Our region is fine.”
But I knew that wasn’t true.
The trust was lost.
I understood it wasn’t personal. I’ve had HR responsibilities myself, so I know those situations are difficult.
But I no longer felt safe opening up.
Mandell: I’ve seen that.
I left a company when fear from above changed how the organization was being led.
I’m not going to do the fear thing, and I’m not going to participate in threats.
I didn’t do that when I was in the military. Why should we do it in corporate America?
Yes, in military training there are mind games and fear factors. There’s a purpose. There are nonnegotiables because lives can be lost.
But when I see those behaviors in corporate America, education, or life outside the military, I personally view them as a dysfunction of leadership.
We’re trying to serve communities, customers, and patients.
Why are you threatening people?
There’s a cost to that leadership style.
It filters from you, down to your employees, and eventually to the customer or client.
When something outside your control destroys the assumptions behind your business plan, that is not the time to change your leadership posture with a team that has been following you.
That’s the time to double down on your leadership posture and share the truth.
“We were just hit with terrible news. We didn’t expect it, but we’re going to work through this together. Our hope is still to hit our revenue goal, and this is how we’re going to try.”
Don’t panic and become the threat police.
When the Problem Is the Leader
Diana: When you’re brought into a corporation to improve engagement and leadership, what happens when existing leaders resist what you’re teaching?
Mandell: Fortunately, I haven’t personally experienced much of that.
But I was brought in as a contract coach on a government engagement. The person at the top believed all these things were wrong with the organization.
Then we completed the assessments and collected the feedback.
The problem wasn’t the organization.
It was her.
The lead coach pulled me aside and said, essentially, “I don’t like this, but I have to be honest with her.”
There was nothing we could do with that data to positively affect the organization without first sharing the overwhelming feedback coming from different divisions about her leadership style.
So we paused the work with the team to work with the leader first.
Unfortunately, funding was later shut down, so we didn’t get to see the eventual outcome.
How Leaders Learn to Receive Feedback
Diana: Then how do we train ourselves to accept feedback?
Suppose we’re that leader, God forbid, and everybody points to us as the problem because we actually are the problem.
How do we cultivate enough humility to hear it, receive it, and make positive changes?
Mandell: Make seeking feedback a norm.
If you’re on my team, I require it because I’m asking for feedback too.
Every time you have a one-on-one with your team, normalize seeking feedback.
Don’t suddenly seek feedback out of the blue because people will think something is wrong.
Don’t wait for organizational change.
Model openness to receiving feedback consistently.
Ask:
“What can I do better?”
“What do you need more from me?”
“What am I doing well?”
“What am I missing?”
“What am I ignoring?”
And then sit silently.
Take notes.
You can ask questions, but don’t discount the feedback.
“Give me a little more. What does that look like?”
You might say, “I appreciate this feedback. Are you okay if I give it some thought over the next couple of days? I may come back and run some ideas by you.”
There can never be retaliation.
If you consistently ask for feedback, people see you taking it in, and then they see you change, you’re always going to get feedback.
You’ll never have to beat it out of people.
The Feedback Mandell Didn’t Expect
Mandell: I once got a surprise from one of my superstar team members.
I asked her, “What can I do differently? What can I do better? What am I missing?”
She said, “Can I be honest?”
I said, “You know you can be honest. That’s why I’m asking.”
She said, “I don’t know if you want to hear this.”
Her name was Debbie.
I said, “What?”
She said, “I need you to stop canceling my one-on-ones at the last minute.”
I said, “Do I do that?”
She said, “Yes.”
I hadn’t even realized it.
Because Debbie was a superstar, I would never cancel on someone I thought really needed me. But I didn’t think she needed me as much as everybody else.
I’d think, “Debbie’s good. Can we connect next week?”
Before I knew it, I’d done that three or four times over a few months.
She felt like I wasn’t there for her the way I was for everybody else.
She told me, “I know why you do it, but there are things I really need to talk to you about too. There are things I need from you.”
I thought, “Wow.”
She was right.
My time with her and her time with me were just as valuable as my time with the new hire.
I had to own it.
Servant Leadership
Diana: That’s one of the things I find so striking about leadership. It gets talked about constantly, but I haven’t met many people who truly understand it or have the skill.
Sometimes leadership is interpreted as, “I’m in charge.”
I don’t think of leadership that way.
There’s a famous Sufi teaching that the leader is the servant of the group.
You’re in service to the whole. And when you’re in service to the whole, everyone comes up.
Mandell: I love that.
Have you read The Servant Leader?
Diana: I know of it, but I haven’t read it yet.
Mandell: I read it years ago, and I need to read it again. That’s really what you’re talking about.
We leaders need to get over ourselves.
When we’re the loudest person in the room, are we really leading?
When we know everything, are we really leading?
I don’t know.
I don’t think so.
We’ve got to get over ourselves.
Taking Calculated Risks
Diana: How would you encourage risk-taking in corporations, groups, and teams?
Mandell: My approach to risk-taking is probably one of the more calculated things I do.
When you have command knowledge of your products, command knowledge of what your competition is saying and doing, and knowledge of what’s happening in your marketplace, you’re in a position to take some risks.
When you understand where the organization is going and the pros and cons of what’s in your basket, that’s an appropriate time to take calculated risks.
Some people say that’s the time to play it safe.
I think that’s the time to take some risks.
What can we do to raise the bar now that everything else is solid?
The Risk That Paid Off
Mandell: When I was leading in the clinical laboratory space, we had external sales representatives in several roles and internal sales representatives who worked on the phones.
The internal reps could only call physician offices generating around $10,000 per month in business. Meanwhile, the external sales team wasn’t calling on anybody bringing in less than roughly $50,000 per month.
I thought: there’s a whole lot of business between $10,000 and $50,000.
So I asked, “What would happen if we raised that threshold?”
One thing I don’t do well is count. I hate numbers.
So I pulled my finance lead aside and asked her to work up the possibilities.
What happens if we convert 10%, 20%, 30%, or 50% of the customer base sitting in that gap?
We hired more internal sales representatives. I made a commitment that we wouldn’t simply cover their salaries, wages, and benefits. We would go far beyond that by converting business nobody was currently calling on.
My team and I committed to doing it within a year.
Diana, it was done in about five months.
We covered the salaries and wages, hit our conversion target, and ultimately hit our annual twelve-month revenue goal in about eight months.
Diana: That’s incredible.
And it’s a full-circle moment.
You had vulnerability because you could acknowledge, “I’m not comfortable with these numbers, but I know who is.”
You trusted the person on your team who was brilliant with numbers.
She brought her expertise.
Other people brought their concerns.
And everybody remained accountable for the outcome.
Mandell: You know what? I hadn’t thought about that.
That is a full-circle moment.
And this is a great way to close this out.
The finance lead who ran those numbers for me years ago is now the CFO of an organization that allowed me to have my first coaching engagement.
She also gave a testimonial for my website.
She still jokes with me about not being able to count.
Diana: You can lead, but you can’t count!
Mandell: Exactly!
Closing
Diana: Mandell, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and being here.
I’m so excited to share this conversation with everyone watching and listening.
If you want to connect with Mandell, I’ll include all the ways you can reach him below.
Mandell, thank you so much.
Mandell: You’re welcome, Diana. It was great seeing you. Good luck with everything you’re doing. It’s great for me to watch you also. I love it.
Diana: Take care.
Mandell: You too.
🔗 CONNECT WITH MANDELL JACKSON
Website: https://mjngage.com/
NGageMe Coaching on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ngagemecoaching/
Email: mandell@mjngage.com
🎙️ ABOUT ANYTHING COULD HAPPEN
Anything Could Happen explores courage, faith, transformation, and the experiences that change how we understand ourselves and the world around us.
Through honest conversations with fascinating people, host Diana explores what happens when we face uncertainty, challenge old assumptions, find our voices, and become more fully ourselves.
Because sometimes the most transformative moments begin when we realize that anything could happen.
✨ ABOUT MIRACULOUS DAY COACHING
Miraculous Day Coaching is dedicated to personal growth, transformation, purposeful living, and helping people move toward lives that feel more authentic, meaningful, and aligned.
Website: www.miraculousdaycoach.com
Connect: diana@miraculousdaycoach.com
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